Talk:Apostasy

Men were "called out" by Jesus who was the Christ, i.e. the anointed king of Judea. Those men were who were called out became His disciples and He taught them how His government shall operate.

This "ekklesia" of the "Christ", i.e. "the called out" of the king, a.k.a. "the church" appointed by King Jesus as the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom, which was one form of government, was not to operate like the governments and rulers of the world who call themselves benefactors but exercise authority one over the other.

The Pharisees sat in the seat of Moses which in the beginning operated with no taxation like the 20% income tax they paid when they were in the bondage of Egypt. There was no king in that government until 1 Samuel 8. There was also no forced offerings but only freewill offerings to Levites "according to their service".

The services of the early Levites actually served the people by providing a social safety net for the needy of their community.

The daily ministration provided all welfare for society through "fervent charity" which strengthened the social bonds of society rather than the "legal charity" that "degenerates" the masses through covetous practices that make the word of God to no effect.

Until King Saul when he did a foolish thing and forced an offering.

The Pharisees and Herod had made the sacrifice of the people to none effect through system that compelled the offerings of the people.

When Christ began his ministry no one sat on the throne of Judea in Jerusalem.

Jesus said he was going to take the kingdom from the Pharisees.

The Pharisees officially stated they "had no king but Caesar" and Caesar who was legally in Judea since Pompey just to determine who was the rightful king.

Pontious Pilate made that decision and officially decided that Jesus "is the king of Judeans".

By these two act they were estranged from the kingdom of God and certainly His righteousness.

Thousand and thousands of Judeans accepted Jesus be as Christ and were released from their obligations to the system of Corban of the Pharisees as they were baptised by the baptism of this "other king, one Jesus". At first, the Church appointed by Christ worked daily in the temple rightly dividing the bread from house to house in a daily ministration of pure religion that fed the flock of Christ who were all the people who actually heard his voice and were doers of what he said. Christ instituted the Church so that the people would not have to sit and eat with rulers of the world because as Proverbs, Psalms, Paul, and Peter stated (in accordance with the teachings and instruction of Christ) the "dainties" of rulers who "exercise authority" offered at their "table" are decietful meats and whate should have been for your welfare is a snare and a trap. Those who have an appetite for the dainties and benefits of those rulers are entangled in the covetous practices of the world that makes men merchandise, darkens their eyes, and curse children.

Church is for the purpose and way of Christ. Because those who were Baptized of Christ at Pentecost were "put out" of the synagogues of the Pharisees[1] the system of welfare provided by the Corban of the Pharisees and the government temple of King Herod was no longer available to those who faith was in Christ. Pentecost became a time to organize congregations for the charitable practices of Pure Religion in a network of servant ministers called the Church appointed by Jesus as He commanded. These free assemblies with the "called out" who unlike the princes and rulers of the gentiles followed The Way and did not exercise authority one over the other nor entangle the people in the covetous elements of the world. The Early Church was bound by love through charity and hope. Those who conform to Christ and seek The Way of righteousness and the will of the Father in heaven are His Holy Church. http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Church

They seem to have blind spot about Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." Which is repeated in Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." And 1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." And 2 Peter 2:14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:" Which is why Jesus instructed us Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Curse_children

John talks about a "great falling away from Apostolic truth. Bertween 200AD-500AD."

I think that is right. Then says "Where the Apostles plan of salvation was fully replaced by false interpretations of the scriptures and new denomic plans of salvation."

I think that is true but the phrase "Apostles plan of salvation " is confusing. The plan was "Jesus' plan". The Apostles were in accord with "Jesus' plan" so whatever he meant is unclear.

He went on to say, "The main tool of the Devil to do this being the Greek Pagan language and the so-called Church Fathers." I think language has been used to deceive the people and that has always been a tool of those who do evil. The early Church writers who never called themselves "fathers" but we should take them on a one by one bases.

I have no idea from his site If he actually knows what the apostasy was that caused the "great falling away". What was that lie that was believed that is still the "false interpretations of the scriptures and new denomic plans of salvation"?

All of this I know in detail because I'm a MI time line expert. Bishop, Rev. Dr. John Sims, DD. The Apostolic Prophet. Religious Investigative Reporter.

Ministers were chosen by the people on and individual basis. Because according to the perfect law of liberty and the command of Christ not to exercise authority one over the other both echo this precept. Contributions to ministers were always freewill offerings and the words charity and love again give the power of choice to the people.

Even the Levites were only tithed to according to their service.[17] We also know the seven men appointed by Peter had to be chosen by the people first. Since, a bishop was just a minister of other ministers, and therefore overseer to ten congregations[18], they too would be chosen by those ministers they served just as the elders, heads of family unit, chose the ministers to their families. A Deacon was just a way of describing a minister of ten elders of families. Bishop, deacon, elder were all used interchangeably by writers like Ignatius of Antioch because all bishops and deacons were also elders as heads of families.

As we saw with ministers like Stephen, we also see the Didache[19] stating: “Therefore, elect for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men who are meek and not lovers of money, true and approved, for they also perform for you the ministry of the prophets and teachers.”

The nature of these appointments would remain the same for centuries. In the 10th century, drastic reforms were enforced to “unify the liturgy” of the Church. This authoritarian call for unity under a centralized Church had been creeping into some Church thinking from the beginning and now became a rebellion against the gospels. This was possible because of the false prophets of the apostate church that had been growing since Constantine called his first council offering bribes posing as donations.

But the modern Church has forgotten the ancient pattern through which the righteousness of God reigns through the hearts and minds of a peculiar people. http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Tens#Choosing_ministers

You are the one who said what I wrote did not "jive" with what you remember reading in those early authors. Because I know of Linus and his sister, Clement, Ignatius, Theophilus, etc. I have studied them. I find them jiving with what I wrote and often cite them although it should be obvious by the Gospels. If your memory does not "jive" you may have remembered them wrong.

Ambrose was one of the first bishops of the Church of Constantine. Not the way Christ "commanded" but like democratic collective. My point. Ambrose and the church of Continue mark a major change and a major counterfeiting of the original way of the Church or ekklesia of Jesus and is on point and not a "Strawman" argument. It is a comparison of two completely different ways. So, I wonder if you understand the point... The way of Christ produced absolutely no Bishops like Ambrose.

You highlited and underlined the "ministers chosen by the people". My article on the tens show that to be the case.

 Originally there was a common recognition between us that the church today is not doing what the original church did.

But the question remains what did it do and how and why did it change. That is what I wrote about in a series of books and essays, with thousands of cites.

There is overwhelming evidence that bishops, deacons, and ministers were chosen by the people.

http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Tens

By the "teachings of Jesus" I mean what is written in the Gospels, what He said.

The "all things" of Mark 4:34 are called by Matthew the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven". To understand why received extra tutelage by Christ you may need to ask why parables?

Matthew 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower."

When you say "passed on orally and liturgically throughout the nascent "Christian community" do you mean from the nascent community of Constantine or nascent community of Christ?

If what I share "appears to run contrary to the broader writings of the early church fathers" you may have to ask who are these fathers? Are they the "fathers of the earth" that Christ cautioned us about?

Metzger's "History of the Liturgy" sowed confusion. http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Liturgy

John 9:22 "These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue."

Anyone being baptized by the apostles were going to be "put out" of the system of Corban set up by Herod and the Pharisees. That Corban was "making the word of God to none effect." They would now have to look to the "called out" of Christ for the daily ministration through pure religion. The Corban of Christ was unspotted by the "legal charity" of the Pharisees or the "free bread" of Rome which were both "making the word of God to none effect." http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Corban_of_Christ

Yes "the early church worshiped, acted, and believed much differently compared to most of us." Because they changed the meaning of words like Religion and worship. http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Worship

Yes, "Many of the things they accepted, believed, and did, we would completely deny today." The question is what things and are they key to the teachings of Jesus?